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Thank you! Definitely still a lot of work to be done on that department but I'm glad it's coming off nicely.

If we're looking into earlier swords that can fit into the system, pretty much anything can. Hangers, cutlasses, mortuary hilts, as well as broadswords who predate the first patterns that came in 1796 (which obviously do fit into the system). If we look into any other broadsword sources the same principle could be applied to some extent. If they were used by the time this system came into effect, I doubt it because they would need to be up to military standards so to speak. Hope that answers the question.

@@EspadaNegra "Hope that answers the question." Not quite, but I think I've posed the question in a wrong way. I'll simplify it and spit it into two parts. 1. What is the oldest (pre-regulation) sabre that we would recognise as a military sabre? Let's stick to British or related to it, let's keep hangers and cutlasses out, and the years can be approximate. So I just look at it and go, ah, a British sabre! 2. When do we see the start of military sabre as a fencing/fighting system? Again, let's stick to British and the years can be approximate. I'm asking this because as far as I know, we had sabres in used way before the 1796 regulations, and thus I assume dedicated fighting systems existed before as well. Btw, it's fine if we don't know. It's also fine if people don't consider anything pre 1796 to be part of military sabre and use that year as a proverbial line in the sand. For me, the entirety of 1700 is a blur. Simplifying things, the 1500s are the years of the sideswords and Italian Wars, the 1600s are the times of the Thirty Years War and religious wars where we see rapiers and rapier hilts even on broad blades, and we also see mortuary swords and the like. The 1800s are the times of military sabres, without a doubt. But 1700? We have hussars in the East, so that's military sabre. But in the West? Even when I go to Wiktenauer, the list of 18th century fencing masters has only two names. So when do we go from mortuary swords and the like to sabres hilts and sabre fighting systems? That's what I'm trying to figure out, because in Britain, this either started way before we (I) typically think about it, or really late compared to the rest of Europe.

So I went ahead and talked with Nick about this, mostly because I can't trust myself seeing as I'm recovering from surgery to be able to formulate thoughts clearly. First we need to understand that sabres themselves and the way they evolved so to speak, and then used wasn't something new. Swords may have looked somewhat different to many others that came before. The long curved sabre blades with relatively compact hilts derived from the hussar and light cavalry trends sweeping across Europe. Britain’s first ever light cavalry regiment was formed in 1759 and used a simple cavalry sabre that we could consider the first. However, basket hilt broadswords and sabres were considered the same family of weapons and taught and used the same. Even the terms were often used interchangeably for both weapons. Therefore the style used with, for example, the 1796 pattern swords was not brand new, but in a long lineage of back/broadsword (think of Angelo's posters, or any broadsword tradition for that matter, etc). Some new language and teaching methodology was introduced around this time, and the swords began to take on their sabre like appearance drawing heavily from Hungarian, Polish and Austrian cavalry swords mostly. So, the 1700s was a period of basket hilt swords as well as many double shell military swords. The change from basket hilt swords like the Mortuary and dragoon type hilts did not happen overnight, but the transition began in the 1750s, and by the 1790s was largely complete, as the last cavalry type basket hilt was the 1788 heavy dragoon model. Remember that a lot of this terminology is very modern as well, like with anything hema related we always try to find umbrella terms for each sword and where they would fit best inside said category. In Britain in the 18th century, sabres and basket hilts (broadswords) were the same thing, just one began to become more fashionable than the other. The trend across Europe was also very similar with Walloon and Schiavona, haudegen etc type swords being popular in the early 18thc, and what we would recognise as sabres becoming extremely popular from around the mid 18thc onwards.

Thank you for this well framed answer, and get well soon! Indeed, this is what I was looking for. So starting with about 1750 we see sabres being adopted in Britain. And 1796 (i.e. introduction of regulation patterns) should be seen as the finishing line for a process, not the start (an important shift in perspective; it makes sense now that I think about it, you make something a regulation when you know what you want to stick with). I guess between the time of the rapier and the time of the sabre, in simple terms, I should think of the basket hilt period. You are right about the names' problem. Backswords, broadswords and basket-hilts were used in the period in a certain context, which is why my brain did not group them together. But now, I'll just think of them all as basket-hilts, with the shell-guards Walloon, Mortuary swords and the like being a subset. It's simpler like that. I'll probably revisit this decision, but for now it suffices as a mental place-holder. P.S. And a bonus thanks! This is the first time I ever hear of Haudegen. I mean, I saw them before, but I was never exposed to the name itself. And here I thought I heard of all sword names in the European area. 😄

I won't lie there is a degree of getting used to it and controlling the blade as you whirl it back into guard. When I first started, just take it slow and go step by step until you don't have to think about it. While on this stage avoid passing the sword so close to you but rather circle it in front of you. It will take some time to fully be able to control it with the correct grip, but overall switching grips as demonstrated does help in controlling the sword as you cut and recover. I do have a lefty in the club as well but the same principle is applied by both left and right handed fencers all around.

Glad you found it useful! Fingers crossed the remaining videos will be just as good :)

A pleasure! :) de nada!

Yeah even though this is just for fun there's always a takeaway out of it. In this case it's even more interesting seeing as all the blades have the same length but behave so differently depending on how they're used.

Having spoken with Catarina and Pedro who made the rotellas and the video itself, they gave me some feedback. But basically it help up fairly well against synthetic since they didn't use steel, but that was about it, they haven't used these in a while so it's hard to assess the longevity. Hope this helps shed some light. Personal two cents is that it should hold up nicely but take it with a grain of salt as more testing would be needed. - Rui

@@EspadaNegra thanks

Absolutely, and it's also very useful not only to build the spring for the lunge but also to quickly be able to shift your right leg back as Roworth mentions.

Thanks!

I'm basically filming my instruction to the class with everyone as quiet as a mouse, but I can't control what's happening outside the hall, usually there's a basketball game at the same time on the hall next to ours which can be annoying. Adding music I did try but it messes up my voice as it doesn't get picked up on that easily. I need to grab a directional mic and aim it at me as the lapel ones often fails and I'd have to film the whole thing again. Sadly my editing skills aren't that great for audio removal.

The flag is only there because there's a group training tae kwon do in the same venue we train in.

Ah don't worry I understood exactly what you mean with the previous comment, like I mentioned, definitely interesting questions worth answering! Glad you enjoy the videos :) And yeah absolutely, Black Fencer definitely is my go-to place for all my sword needs haha.

Several things to dissect here let me address point by point just so I can shed some light, pun intended. - Yes it's true it's not meant for cutting "So why are you delivering sabre cuts with it?" just because it isn't meant to cut doesn't mean it won't do some degree of damage, otherwise would you be willing to let me cut you full force with a sharp antique? Would you be ok with it? Not a threat haha, just literal question, would you allow anyone to swing full force at you regardless of the protection you had? - "I have a problem that we are using pallasches as (straight) infantry sabres." So this is the same argument that lead me to actually do some research and really wanted one, a cuirassier without a horse would still need to defend himself somehow with the sword he had in his hand, so using a cavalry sword while not on horse should still be used one way or another, so just trying out to see what would that be like. - "But you are mentioning that you have to pull your cuts, which means that you are not even using the weight advantage behind a cut, leaving you with a slower infantry sabre." Yes because swinging this full force would be irresponsible in a practice scenario, I love my sparring partners and I want them to continue fighting, a broken arm takes a while to recover and a damaged mask can be... well you get my idea. - "People that have more knowledge of manuals can clarify, did they teach the use of a pallasch sword on foot? " - I actually do have 10 years of research on british historical swordsmanship and for instances, the Art of Defence on Foot is meant to cover all swords both infantry and cavalry with a system to be used on foot. The system in the british army would be the same with separate cavalry exercises but while on foot you'd be expected to defend yourself with what you have. - "Heavy cavalry officers did carry a separate sword on foot after all (i.e. the dress sword)." Dress swords aren't necessarily "battle" ready, they were often unsharpened and to be used... you guessed it as a dress sword, so formal events, not for actual fighting. Granted some were of course, but they wouldn't be switching from horseback to foot from one sword to the other because like I mentioned it wouldn't be carried into battle per se. Like I mention, not a strict rule, there were always some exceptions. And no worries, definitely not being negative, these are all valid questions and these are definitely topics that I will address in a video review, plenty of content here to talk about, so a genuine thank you for bringing all these up :) Appreciate the comment and I hope my reply was insightful or useful.

@@EspadaNegra Ok, my turn... 🙂 "...would you be willing to let me cut you full force with a sharp antique?" No! Absolutely not! And forget about full force, I say no to even a glancing blow. I have a Napoleonic 1796 type infantry sabre that is nimble as it can be, and it still retained some of its sharpness. I swear that blade knows blood, and it's asking for more. I used it for a small solo drill (not hitting anything) and I had to remind myself that it's an antique, and that I shouldn't swing it too fast since you never know what can break. But it's such a pleasure to move, and that would be the sword I would take with me back in the 1800 (metaphysically, it draws me in to that period when I hold it). On the other hand, my double-edged Hungarian pallasch (that I love equally), that at 1kg feels heavy in the hand, would give me a contusion before it would cut me, but it would cut nonetheless. So the question is, you against yourself (so skill is not a factor), the nimbler sabre versus the heavier pallasch I described above, who would win? My money is on the sabre. But I guess that's the question you are asking as well. And you are making some excellent points about cavalry fighting on foot being just infantry fighting, so you better know how to do it with the weapon you have on you, and not the one you would have with your uniform (which may be sharpened or not; indeed I thought more about the blade type and spadroon like hilt and I forgot that officers would rarely sharpen a dress sword). As a last thing, my "pulling the cuts comment" was in connection to your message in the video description. The idea being that if you pull your hits to protect your sparring partner (which you should), it invalidates the test in a way (in the end, a known issue with heavy weapons sparring, and one can always find that weapon that's just too much for the standard protection). But in reality, I saw some interesting parry then thrusts in your video that made sense with the pallasch. Just rememebr to trade your pallasch with your friend to also test fight against it before you make the review. The more I write, the more I'm interested in the results and the more I'm validating your choice for the pallsch. Good job! 😄 P.S. I must not start looking into military sabre, I must not do it! I have to stay faithful to Bolognese side-sword and make headway, I have to! Ok, maybe cheat a bit with rapier, but Capo Ferro and Giganti are Italians so it doesn't count. They're practically the same thing... the spadone though... 😅

You sure you have a 1796 infantry? Really asking because the patterns were for both light cav and heavy cav, there is a spadroon for infantry but since it doesn't have a curved blade it wouldn't fall under the category of sabre. Also fun thing is that a heavy sword can appear light, and a light sword can appear heavy depending on the point of balance and weight distribution, think for instances the 1796 light cavalry, it's indeed light weight but the weight distribution really wrecks your wrist. And yes all things considered if it's just me against myself it's a no brainer, but that isn't the exercise here. It's going up against anyone with a cavalry sword and using your skill to overcome the adversary using a sword that can put you at a disadvantage. Don't really think pulling back blows invalidates the test per se, exploiting the opening and landing a thrust or cut would be the same thing, there's never the need to use full force to cause damage, not only that but the cuts can go full speed, the only difference being stopping them before and learning to brake them before they cause real damage. Sadly I don't trust anyone in my club at this point to be able to use this safely against anyone, not to mention I'm about the right height and size for a cuirassier, whereas everyone in the club is much shorter than I am, so the odds of them holding this would be even slim. I just need to get a cuirass now to make this more interesting!

​@@EspadaNegra First, yes on the cuirass! What I have is a "pre-regulation Infantry Flank officer’s sabre dating from between 1796 and 1804", if I quote the antique shop from where I bought it. It looks exactly like a 1796 light cavalry sabre, but lighter and shorter (which is why I am referring to it as a 1796 infantry sabre). And you hit the nail on the head. A 1796 light cavalry sabre feels heavy and slow by comparison. This is why I am making such a big fuss over using an infantry sword on foot for that added advantage (our agreement over using what you have on you notwithstanding). I'll add a link to the swords in a separate message, in case it gets blocked.

@@EspadaNegra Ok, it gets deleted. I was expecting that. But even mentioning the blog site removes the message. You'll need to search for Virtus Martialis. From there, follow the crumbs to the next blog and the new post I made today to showcase the two swords I mentioned to you.

Yep very true, it's not meant to be a cutting sword but it would still do it's fair share of damage.

Do you remember the video in question? I'm curious to see the original context. Unless I'm missing something, cutting like a butter knife doesn't sound like a good thing at all, they're just blunt spatulas when you think about it, and that's the worst you can call a sword.

@@FiliiMartis Before I address your reply, as I need to sit down for that one, I will leave you here the video. As soon as I'm home and sitting comfortably I'll take the time to address your reply on the other comment ;) ruclips.net/video/Xz7KcwASm2c/видео.html

@@FiliiMartis I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want a 1.5 kilo, 39 inch long pointy metal bar being sung at you. Not to mention that its meant for thrusting, so delivering point with this would still put anyone out of action.

@@iantheduellist Ok, I had a look at the video linked above and there's no reference to "cuts like a butter knife". Your hyperbole is fine, and at the stated 1.35kg weight, it would indeed hit pretty hard since it's a very stiff blade. But for a moment I thought that Matt mentioned it being used as a (imperfect) cutting sword. He doesn't, and he is emphasising the fact that it's a thrusting only sword, mentioned in period sources to be used as such (which is what I though). In the end, there's a difference between being hit with a crowbar and an unsharpened edged blade of the same weight. The Cuirassier blades have a quite thick edge, much more than people would expect, so it's more like a crowbar than a blunt sword. Now that I think about it, even HEMA trainers have a thinner edge. Looking at the video, it reminded me how much I like the look of that blade. I actually saw in person a trophy French blade on a Spanish bilbo hilt. The blade was sharpened in the period towards the tip, but because they removed so much material, it lost a lot of its rigidity and the blade is warped at present. Still, those fullers could work in HEMA as a way to get thick edges on trainers while keeping the weight down. Kvetun did something like that on their new Arming 3 sword. I thought a concern would be not to get the blade too stiff, but that seems to be manageable and not much of a concern.

Hi Carlo! Nope this one isn't a standard model so they'll only make it upon request.

​@@EspadaNegraHow much would this cost?

@@TheMightyTengu since Black Fencer does this on a commission basis I don't know how much it would cost to be honest. Best thing is, if you're interested, ask them directly.

For the price tag I'd say definitely grab one, or two! So the tip-toeing, you guessed it, another suggestion from David, I don't think I took full advantage of it, but it allows you to be more responsive and reactive, but I didn't use it to full effect as I'm still too stiff and steady from all the years doing british military sabre, so it's another chip to change in my head to take full advantage and become more mobile. - Rui

Bernardo is pretty skilled but with different weapons, sabre is still very much new to him, whereas I already have a decade of british military sabre fencing. - Rui

@@EspadaNegra Oh i see, hope Bernardo adapts quickly to sabre, it's pretty fascinating

@@zer_pp Yep, you are very much right, saber has been a struggle, not that I do much of it. Pretty sure right after the video is cut off I say something along the lines of "man, I really suck at saber", ahah.

@@BernasLL it's totally fine man, we all have our unique talents just because you can't master sabre doesn't mean you can't master everything else, keep trying i'm rooting for you :)

​@@zer_ppthat's awfully nice of you to say, cheers.

Without going into semantics Rui is the instructor yes, and also has 10 years more of British military sabre fencing than Bernardo who is better adapted at other swords and systems.

Just what you'd normally do with a case of rapier or case of sideswords like what we did on a recent video. You can use both offensively or defensively or just use one or another for any given task. This is simplifying things too much but just to give you a general idea.

Hi there, we're just south of Lisbon in Seixal. We do have a few underaged students including one that started when he was 14. If you're ever in Portugal hit us up and we'll go from there, you can always drop by to see what it's like and try it out. Thank you ;)

@@EspadaNegra Ooh that sounds nice, over here in France it's always olympic fencing other than HEMA and there's always strict age rules. Thanks for reaching out to me, i'll certainly see what i can do! :)

Well if you're in Greece you can always get in touch with Academia da Espada Hellas, I think they're only based in Athens but they should still be able to point you to a club you might fit in well. Whatever you do don't give up! :)

Obrigado ;)

Thank you! :)

Finally, the commentary I need

I think it was just a one time occurrence. I've taken this one to multiple events, and never happened again, so I guess I spoke too soon.

Shame not being able to avoid the second cut.

That was the second one, the first one was what did the damage. Still took it like a champ!

Unless your enemy has studied their Agrippa... which I have!

So the the one in black (Ibrahim) had very little experience with sabre, whereas blue (Rui) has already a decade of british military sabre. It was almost like an instructional sparring moment.

@@EspadaNegra yeah I noticed, btw I'm not a Hema guy, Eskrimador from Paraguay. But I can tell.

Always a pleasure, glad you like them :)

Spreading the good word as wide as the stance allows and as deep as his lunges. Que empieze la pascalizacion! Hahah.

@@EspadaNegra We tend to call it hacer pascalidades

An absolute pleasure! Every bout is a learning experience be it new or old, and I'm sure the next time we fence we both will be very different fencers... even if it's just next week! :) P.s. I still have the sabre one to upload 😅

@EspadaNegra oh boy.. it was a massacre, but it's gonna be fun to check back in a few months when I get the ball rolling with saber 😅

Not at all, we all start somewhere! Just wait until you look back on these videos in a few years, then it gets funny haha.

Thank you for your opinion, it has been framed and put on a wall in the club. Be assured your effort in creating this precious youtube comment was not in vain, we will bask in your wisdom in the years to come.

Thanks for the input. I'm actually learning with David and I've never hid the fact he's a major reference for me in smallsword, and there's plenty to work on. That being said I'll take it as a compliment. Because if it's enough to even bring David as a subject then I'm on a good path. Let's hope we can cross swords in the future ;) - Rui

Imagine being cringe and insecure enough to type this and hit send lmfao what a dork

This comment displays the same complete incompetence at differentiating fencing styles that I have been harassed with over the last 3 years. Grow up and stop being a sad/jealous loser

@@EspadaNegra sorry but it is only a very superficial and poor imitation of his poses and individual mannerisms

Thank you! There's more where that came from too :) - ruclips.net/video/BSAyiVStKrY/видео.html

Thank you so much! :) We're always happy to be of service haha.

Thanks! These are both Kvetun rapiers, we made a review in the channel of the model Rui is using.

Thank you so much. Very happy you liked it :)

Hi Paul, the smallswords showcased on the video are the old AHF model from Historical Fencing Armoury with the old musketeer blade model. They've revised the hilt model and made the design much better, but the musketeer blades have become nearly unusable as they're too stiff. The ones in the video were great but no longer being made as they were.

True but beware of Thibault as it cancels out Capo Ferro. (though I tend to disagree).

@@EspadaNegra But in order to go against Thibault, one will have studied his Agrippa, which I have

Let me just ping here @scholagladiatoria so I can get their paypal info on that one 🤣